Game design and theory - Introducting third class (team) inside Tremulous


#22

Sorry, but I absolutely hate the ideas of letting spectators do anything and controlling structures.


#23

Or perhaps a upgrade to the turret which allows spectators to do that?


#24

I was a member of a Tremulous mod group that was focused on adding a third playable team. The mod group died out and no release ever happened, because our coder got busy with IRL (school and work). But many of the ideas in this thread are not unfamiliar to me. Anyway:

The more I think about it, I agree. I had suggested the idea of “Spectre” team… but factors of the game that you can’t see or interact with; which would alter the play and possibly even bring bias against another team, doesn’t sound very fun.

Additionally, it might be a nightmare to try to balance the rest of the game. It’s necessary that the core play between just 2 teams should be as ‘balanced’ as possible before unbalancing things with a 3rd playable team.

I had a separate idea to allow spectators to ‘participate’ though, in a way that would not directly influence play (immediately) but let to them do special things like set up new .layouts (or otherwise let people “script” a map/campaign(?) to use on later re-plays of the same map – which normally would required setdevmode on (which isn’t desirable on a populated server/active games going). This idea in itself might be workable in some other forms here, regardless of the existence of a third team, so I’ll make another thread about it…

I do think the general idea of a 3rd playable race could work (and be very fun) if it’s done correctly. Butttt, if done wrong, will be helluva lame. So here’s some things to consider:

Tremulous games need at least 2 players to get a match started… 3rd-team means 3 players minimum would be needed, so my conclusion is that 3rd-team should either be available with a minimum number of players on the server.

There’s also the problem that servers and games are “seeded” by just a couple players, but with a 3rd-team you’d need 3 players instead of just 2. And, currently in a 2-team game, 2 players on 2 teams can be joined by a third player, but it just unbalances play on one of the teams. This is solved by adding a 4th player… But in a 3-team game, 1 additional player on either team would then need 2 additional players to solve the unbalance.

If the idea of a 3rd team is going to be “good” consider these:

  • What fits into the “theme” of the game (Sci-Fi/Horror with alien creatures v dudes with guns)?
  • Does that fit the “genre” (FPS action and RTS building)?
  • What differentiates the third team from the other 2 teams, or makes them similar, concerning:
    • Their movement / controls
    • Weaponry and attacks
    • Any structures they build / bases

#26

@ThunderBolt I want to chat with you to make sure I understand your idea first


#27

Then feel free to chat me up.


#28

My wishlist on all this “3rd class” system was this:

Aliens, vs aliens vs humans. :slight_smile:


#29

The third race should be a magical one with wizards and dragons and gnomes using magic meele weapons and spells relying on mana.


#31

World of Tremcraft, a mix of fps, rts, rpg, mmog, and tetris.


#32

Challenge accepted! :slight_smile:


#33

What would be the possible disadvantages to introduce rpg aspects in whole or in part to fps (Please go into constructive details on the potential issues, and try to avoid vague explanations like “not a good idea” or “bad idea” or “dumb”, etc)?

What would be the potential advantages t0 introduce rpg aspects in whole or in part to fps? How would it add to the fun? (Please go into details and try to avoid vague explanations like “because it would be fun” or “because it would be cool”, etc).

Of course we can’t fully know if such an approach of utilizing at least some rpg elements is overall a good or not so good idea without at least seeing it in action. Even then how something is implemented can greatly affect the quality. But still at this stage, before considering implementation, it can be beneficial to constructively consider the pros and cons.


#34

Wizards will not fit in well with a game based on alien and human combat. If it is turned into an RPG you are just making it like every other newer game out there, and it could no longer be considered Tremulous.


#35

RPG elements can still be utilized while keeping the science fiction theme, the game elements/mechanics should be considered on a theme independent way, for example, a game play aspect that might work in a fantasy type theme, might also work well with a scifi theme it just requires some creativity for the translation.


#36

I say it starts feeling like it isn’t Tremulous. Response I get is “This isn’t intentional.” (Along the road, continues to make it more “intentional” by completely changing the entire gameplay).


#37

The initial design of Tremulous when it started as a quake 3 mod had very little resemblance to 1.1 vanillaish Tremulous. There have been many Tremulous mods since that pushed past the boundaries on what might have been considered “conventional Tremulous” (like Tremx/KoRx/related, X, W, F, H v H, Z, Arcade, instagib, rcz, Edge, cuboid, ambush, AMP, etc…). A lot of different people, with different tastes, have been attracted to Tremulous over the years, in part due to the richness in variation of Tremulous game play to choose from. The answer to the question of “What is Tremulous?” can vary according to different Trem players.

For me, the aspects that attracted me to Tremulous mainly include the following:

  • social aspect

  • strategy

  • group problem solving

  • scifi theme

  • manipulation of the environment

  • experimentation (with the mod scene)

  • action

Having new game play to choose from doesn’t take away from older game play options. The main thing is that any new game play is fun.


#38

Every severe change should be made a MOD first, then decided if it should be added to the main gameplay.


#39

With a game mode system, the “main” game play doesn’t have to be restricted to a single type, making the stakes of making significantly different new things available as options less severe. Different servers can choose what kind of game play they want to make available, and different servers can serve different purposes.


#41

Well first off. I never said it shouldn’t be done. I said it’s not advised for a fps genre or as I stated it “Not a good idea to introduce rpg to a fps”

Not once in my entire life have I’ve ever seen a first person shooter rpg where wizards have chainguns and wands and cast magical fire spells. I still don’t want to see it.

Why not introduce rpg to a fps? Because it’s already a FPS adding the role playing game mechanic in a game that does not roleplay and rely heavily on tactical force and etc use of rushing, base building and etc.
Adding something like a level base system, magical spells, normal rpg stuff would be one to much for a fps/rpg. If there was an idea that uses the bases of leveling up, maybe some magical spells, and keeping some sort of rush tactic would be a tower defense game. It is more suited for trem only because it has a majority of the key factor your normal fps game would have. Not to mention we already have defensive maps that you possibly “could” classify as tower defense(esk).

In my personal opinion it would flat line faster then anything i’ve ever seen because trying to put two things that aren’t meant to be together, together.


#42

Even though a lot of popular rpg games might have things like wizards and magic, that doesn’t mean they are inherent to all rpg.

Tremulous has been commonly described as fps with elements of rts. I was just reading over an article about rpg, and it looks like trem already shares some common aspects. Trem has a form of an internal economy system, there is handling of inventory, evolving with aliens is sorta like leveling up (although more short term, only for your current life which is pretty short in trem generally).


#43

That is why I wrote topic here and ask for opinions.

For the RPG part, well I don’t have any problem with that. but I wrote that reply as a joke :slight_smile:

Tremulous have some elements of the RPG already, like level system for the aliens.
But please don’t think about RPG at this moment.
Focus on the 3rd class (team).


#44

Any newly introduced changes might initially change the feel of the (still in development) game, but I assure you that we still want the final game play to feel like “Tremulous”, but NOT the “same Tremulous” (same as 1.1). Some functionality might not make it into Swirl mode- but will be implemented nonetheless as options available for mods. The action, pacing, alien classes, gun play and teamwork should ultimately feel like more Tremulous - when we re-tune things and make some cuts.

Our intentions (as long-time Tremulous players) isn’t to alienate the existing player base, but instead make the game nicer to play for ALL people, including the possibility of attracting new players- which 1.1 has had the chance to do; and has failed to capitalize on, for a decade. Also, because the plan is to have multi-mode servers, there will be nothing to stop anyone from running a near clone of 1.1’s play (“vanilla mode”).

Argument against rpg is that you aren’t playing a role- other than a ruthless killer who can slaughter the enemy team in under 3 mins. Games are supposed to be able to be won in a short time (assuming vast skill difference), so there’s no time/reason to enhance the “role” with RPG-like stats. It would be bad to change any stats/player attributes that would influence play, or at least it’d be bullshit in a pure-test-of-skill like competitive scrims.

“Karma system” and “player tier” are the droids you are looking for. Also, achievements & badges will enhance/upgrade the sense of accomplishment any player has- with no impact on play (assuming none of the achievements depend on a particular in-game action or behavior, performed to get the achievement - at the detriment of the match)

Sorry for the off-topicness of this post. Just wanted to clarify what it is we’re doing.


Retaining New Players With Game Play